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Michael Parkinson: Hush. Thank you. More than I deserve. My special guest tonight is the artiste formerly known as Giorgios Kyriakos Paniaytou. He's a one-time disc-jockey at the Bel-Air Restaurant in Bushey who became a superstar of modern popular music. He's the boy who worked as a dish-washer in his father's restaurant, who Sir Elton John described as the Paul McCartney of his generation. More recently, he's been in the news because of what's been described as the most public 'coming-out' in history. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome, please - George Michael. [intro music] [audience cheers/applaus] Michael Parkinson: May we begin? [audience laughter] George: What a lovely bunch. Michael Parkinson: Yes. George: They're very large, these Greek families, aren't they? Michael Parkinson: Well, nice to see you anyway. Good to see you, and a good looking family. George: I have to say before we start actually, I wanted to say that this is a great honour for me, because I can remember, I don't know, 8 or 9 years old, and my mum would allow me to stay up beyond a certain time in the evening - only to watch the 'Parkinson Show'. She thought it would be a bit of quality watching. So I'm very, very privileged to be here. Thank you. Michael Parkinson: Well, that's very, very kind of you. Very kind of you. It's good to have you. George: And she probably wouldn't have been quite as thrilled that I had to take my willy out to get on here. [audience laughter/applause] Michael Parkinson: Well... George: I mean, really - really, would I have been on for an hour tonight without that incident? [audience laughter] Michael Parkinson: Well, it pleased the producer anyway. But certainly - yes, of course you'd have been on for an hour, because... George: Because I remember calling earlier in the year, and they said they could get me a walk-on on 'Going for a Song'. [audience laughter] George: And that was about it, you know. But suddenly, here I am. Michael Parkinson: Oh, here you are. Let talk about that incident which led you to be here tonight. I mean, what happened? What was the story? George: I think it's fairly well documented by now. I mean, it's something that I've had to talk about for a while so that I can not have to talk about it in the future, you know. Michael Parkinson: Sure. George: What happened was, basically, I fell prey to one of these swat teams that they have in America. And I think they kind of - they probably still have them in parts of England, but they're basically, they're paid to nick guys who are looking for sex with one another, I guess. And the way that they do this, unfortunately, in the States, is to actually try and induce the crime and then - or if they get a response from someone then they nick them basically. So what happened with me - even though the police report suggested that I was a flasher, you know, I mean, I may be screwed up, but I'm not a flasher - I responded to something. I responded to something. And I responded to, you know, a very handsome, tall, good-looking American cop. You know, they don't send Colombo in there to do... [audience laughter] George: And so I responded to that. And I can't be ashamed of the fact that, you know, it was there in front of me, and I thought well, why not? You know. It was a stupid moment, and obviously I've suffered for it. But... Michael Parkinson: They said, of course, the police say that, in their justification, they'd had complaints of lewd behaviour in there. George: All about me, of course. Michael Parkinson: Yes. George: You know. Michael Parkinson: But in that sense, I mean, you've said you were - you felt you were entrapped. But is there a sense in which also you might believe you were set-up? I mean... George: I think it's difficult to go that far without sounding, you know, like there's a conspiracy against me, and god knows, I've kind of suggested that before. So I think it's fairly likely that there was a little more collaboration between the paparazzi and the police than is necessary or legal, put it that way. And that was indicated by the fact that the next day, or within hours there was a police arrest report, which is not - they're not released from the LAPD, but there was a police arrest report which was obviously on the desk of the tabloids within 4 or 5 hours. Michael Parkinson: I suppose a lot of people would ask the question about why you, as a public figure, as somebody who is recognised - both here and in America, why you take such an outrageous risk. George: Well, I suppose that's the whole point, isn't it? Michael Parkinson: Is it? That's why I'm asking you. George: I think so. I mean, I think so. I don't know. I mean, to some degree - oh, you know, I was not in the best state of mind, and it was a kind of reckless thing to do. But ultimately, you don't see it as a massive risk if there's no one else around, and you, you know, I've said this before, but it's true, if there's someone standing there waving their genitals at you, you don't think that they're an officer of the law, you know, it's not your first presumption. So you know, I fell for the trick, you know, I fell for the trick, and it was very well done. Michael Parkinson: But nonetheless, you knew the risk you were taking, that's the point. George: Mm. Michael Parkinson: And one wonders, I mean, one it's been suggested that, perhaps, in a sense, what you are doing is that you are actually begging to be arrested, so, in fact, that you - the 'cming-out' will be public. George: Believe me, I wasn't begging to be arrested. Michael Parkinson: No, no. But I mean... George: People have actually even suggested that somehow - and I mean, I have to say, I have had the Number 1 album for the last 4 weeks, which I'm very glad of. But I'd have to say... [audience applause] George: ...I'd have to say that if I was the bravest and most genius popstar in the world, maybe I would have done it deliberately, because in the rest - in the vast majority of the world, with the exception of America which, you know, it's like a wall to wall homophobia anyway, everywhere else I've never had my records kind of - well, I have actually, but probably not since the days of Wham, ever had a record that's done to well. So you have to, kind of, presume that some of it is about the fact that the arrest focused people on the fact that, you know, I had a Greatest Hits album out there. So yes, I can see, obviously there would have been - from a mental, from my own point of view - there would have been reasons that it would probably have been quite a good idea to do it that way. But believe me, I would rather have run up and down Oxford Street naked saying "I'm gay, I'm gay" than have it happen the way it did. Michael Parkinson: But let's go back to that moment in time where you - well, not, but later on, you'd been arrested, you had been bailed out, you went back home. Now it can't be at that time that you were in an optimistic frame of mind. You must have felt that, indeed, your world had collapsed from underneath you. What was your frame, what was your feeling? George: My frame of mind, I think, was still very much influenced by the fact that I lost my mother last year. And as has been fairly well documented, I lost my first partner, my first ever real livin partner about 5 years ago. Michael Parkinson: Yes. George: So I've had a very strange, not just strange, but a very distressing 5 years, and I'd actually literally, within - the arrest happened within about a week of what I felt was the end of my intense grieving period for my mother, so I'd come out of about 5 months of terrible depression, depression that where I was afraid for the first time, that I was really scarred by the things that had happened to me. And when I came out at the other end of that depression I was so grateful that that was over, that when this happened it almost, within a day - of course, for a day I was, like, humiliated as hell, and I was embarrassed and had to deal with GEORGE MICHAEL: everything with my boyfriend and stuff - but after about a day, a day and a half, I could - almost immediately, actually, I saw the funny side of it, you know, and I just thought, you know, you've got to be able to laugh at this. If you can't laugh when everyone else is laughing then you're in trouble, you know. And god knows, everyone else was laughing. So within about a day, day and a half I was able to see it as, kind of, something that put it in perspective really, just having gone through such heavy stuff in my life recently, just put it in perspective. Michael Parkinson: In fact, you went to - you took the decision, I think, 24 hours after all this was happening, with helicopters and news crews all outside, you decided to go to a restaurant, didn't you? George: Uh-huh. Michael Parkinson: To sort of make your public declaration. Tell me what happened when you got there. George: Well, I suppose I just - I was.. There's one recurring theme to my actions as a celebrity or as a person, as an adult, and that is if I'm pressured into anything, or pressured into a point of view or a certain position, either by individuals or by history i.e the way that celebrities normally deal with scandal and shame, you know, or supposed shame, I react against it. And my reaction to this was I'm not going to be like another one of these people that's peeking out from behind their net curtains a month later, you know, trying to get rid of the press. They were surrounding the house, and I thought for god's sake, you know, what is the game here? What do you want, a reconstruction? What is it? You know. Why are you all here? So I thought I'm just going to go out for a meal. I know they'll all chase me. I know they'll just, you know, I know it will cause - and it did cause havoc. You had all these cars going across red lights, and this and that. And I was just ambling down to my local restaurant, you know. And I just thought that's the only way to deal with it. In fact, someone had said something to me earlier in the day, that - one of my closest friends said that his mother said he's not the first, he won't be the last, he's just the biggest. And I thought, oh, I like that. [audience laughter/applause] George: I thought, I like that. You can take that any way you want. But I thought if, you know if - and this is.. and she's the friend of my mother, and she's in her sixties, so if someone of that age can see it in perspective from another generation, can see it in that kind of perspective I thought, you know, then pretty much most people probably will. And I really - I gathered confidence over that day, day and a half, that there really was no need for this to be a disaster. Michael Parkinson: You obviously talked to friends as well, and you found solace and consolation, and inspiration, I suppose, from them. Since you came back and came back to England, what's been the public reaction? Has there been any anti-public reaction, for instance? George: Well, I was saying to people - 3 or 4 months after the arrest, I could honestly say that if someone had bashed me over the head before I got back from LA and given me amnesia, I wouldn't have known what was going on. All I would have known was that I was signing more autographs, more people were coming up to me in the street and saying we love what you do, and good luck to you, and this and that. And with the exception of a few cars that drive past at 50 miles an hour - "you queer bastard" [audience laughter] George: You know. And they're gone before you can even absorb the insult. So it's like, you know, with the exception of that, which might have confused me a little, I wouldn't have known what was going on. I wouldn't have known. Everyone's been so great, you know. Michael Parkinson: When - you called your dad from LA, didn't you? George: Uh-huh. He called me, actually. Michael Parkinson: He called you, yeah. George: Yeah. That was not a phone call I was looking forward to, I have to admit. I don't think it's terribly inhuman of me to admit to that. Michael Parkinson: But your dad knew, of course, that you're... George: Yeah, yeah, my dad - I was 'out' with my dad. Michael Parkinson: Of course, that's right. But what did he say to you? George: Well, my dad - I mean, he's been great about my sexuality in general. I think obviously, it wasn't easy for him at first to accept. But I didn't know how he would react, but he basically called me up and said tell them all to sod off, you know. Tell them all to sod off, you know. You're who you are, you know. You've gut nothing to be ashamed of, and tell them to sod off. And so that's basically what I did. Michael Parkinson: I mean, you're not contrite. George: I'm contrite in that it was a stupid risk to take in my position. It could have gone horribly wrong. If I were weaker than I am, it could have finished me off. So it was a stupid thing to do. I'm contrite in the fact that, of course, you do have to accept when things are against the law, they're against the law. But I'm not contrite for what I actually did because I wasn't being flagrant, I was absolutely - again, regardless of what the police arrest report said, there was no one in the vicinity but two undercover cops and a, you know, slightly drunk, randy popstar, that was it. You know, I was not subjecting the public, you know to my - to full-frontal nudity or anything. It was completely - as far as I was concerned, it was completely an encounter between two adults, and it was totally private. Michael Parkinson: One final question on this, do you think that the police knew who they had before they had you? George: I think somebody in that group of... What was that laugh for? [audience laughter] Michael Parkinson: The problem with this is... George: I think you suggested - exactly, anything you say. Michael Parkinson: ...the double entendre. George: Exactly. Michael Parkinson: That the possibility is infinite. George: Exactly. Yeah. Michael Parkinson: But you know what I mean. I mean, do you believe that they actually knew... George: I don't think the person who nicked me was, because he looked scared shitless. He really did. Once we were out on the street, and I was in the street saying to him - this is ridiculous, this was entrapment. What is this about? You know. In fact, I told him what a great job I thought he had. But... [audience laughter] George: ...but he was standing there and he looked - I didn't mean it! [audience laughter] George: He was standing there and he looked absolutely terrified, because someone had obviously told him who I was. I think somebody who directed that little hit squad knew I was there. Because the other thing that has to be remembered is that the police station - another part of this genius plan of mine, the police station was about 45 seconds down the road, literally, at the end of that street. So you know, someone would have only had to spot me,. or a paparazzi person would only have to spot me, make a call, and they were there, you know, within a minute. Michael Parkinson: Let's go back then, you mentioned your dad there, and I mean, he came over from Cyprus as an immigrant, a quid in his pocket, and worked hard and married your mum, built up a business. What sort of a background was it that you grew up in, what kind of a - was it a very close family background? George: Very close. It was - my connection with my mother, and I spent a lot more time around my mother, so from that point of view, my mother being English and, in a strange way, very, kind of, classless, because she came from a very working class background, but she'd been sent to a convent school because her mother was afraid she was going to be a tomboy. So she was sent to a convent school which, firstly, put her straight off religion, and she spoke very well, so she spoke almost with a middle-class accent. So I had this kind of really weird thing, that I spoke like someone who was relatively middle-class, and yet my father was first generation immigrant, so the mentality of the two things. And my mother was also very British in that she had very - I get my attitude to money from her, which is always, you know, her attitude to money was that it was something to be afraid of, and that took a long time for me to get rid of that idea, you know. And yet my father's attitude to money was you just grab it and move up, you know. Michael Parkinson: Yes. But was it to be rich and famous, your ambition? George: I actually realised about 6 months ago, someone put a question to me, and I actually realised that at no point during my early life, when I was - all my ambitions, or even when I started to realise my ambitions, at no point did it ever occur to me that one of the by-products of this would be that I could buy whatever I wanted, or, you know, live in a big house, have a flashy car, all the things that are very pleasant, you know. But it really hadn't occurred to me, it had never occurred to me. So I didn't want to be rich, I just wanted to be filthily famous. Michael Parkinson: But why was that? Did you think that would make you more attractive? Do you think that makes you a different human being? George: It was like most singers, it was feeling not listened to. It was lots of feelings of low selfworth. All kinds of things that - all the things, all the kind of screwed up things that go together to make someone who becomes well known. Michael Parkinson: Well, what was the low selfworth based on though? It was about your looks, wasn't it, about the way you were? George: Well, it was everything. I think my looks didn't help. You know, I wasn't... Michael Parkinson: Tell us - I mean, what did you look like? You look alright now, I've got to say. I mean. George: Well, I looked kind of like a - I suppose I looked like a curly haired, fatter version of what I am now. [audience laughter] George: But I don't know if it was really about that. Actually, I didn't - I probably felt better about the way I looked when I was 17 or 18 than I do now. But it was all kinds of things. It was more this desire to be recognised and all - like I said, just all the same things. I mean, I haven't met one - and people talk about them, but I have never met a star who didn't come from the same kind of insecurity. You know, it's the things that are missing that make you a star. It's not the things that you have. Michael Parkinson: You did work, for a time, in various odd jobs. I mentioned in my introduction that you were a DJ at the Bel-Air at Bushey. Now, that must have been a hell of a job, that. George: It was. Yes. I was a DJ. It was my first - I think my first performances consisted of - well, I had to say this every night, just before.. because basically, it was a dinner-dance restaurant. It was very, very hip, you know, dinner-dance. And I was allowed to play the occasional vaguely disco-ey record in between 17 requests for the Birdie dance, you know. [audience laughter] George: And I had to just - when people had finished, when it was kind of winding down, the kind of dinner thing, if you'd never been there before, you didn't know there was a DJ because I was stuck behind a big post, pillar thing, and you weren't supposed to see me, which did obviously did wonders for my confidence as well. And every night I would have to say -"Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, I hope you've enjoyed your meal. Welcome to the Bel-Air Restaurant. We hope you'll partake of a little dancing..." It was so awful. So awful. And my hands used to get clammy and sweaty every night before I had to do this, because I knew that the moment I stopped talking all the restaurant noises, all the clinking of glasses, all the cutlery and everything would just go schzummm! Because everyone would be, like - what's that? Every night, it was the same thing. And I was absolutely hopeless at it. I've no idea how I'm able, or was almost immediately able to sing to thousands and thousands of people when I literally just used to shudder at the thought of talking to these few dinner dance people. Michael Parkinson: Let's then now - I think it's time for music, don't you? George: Yes, I think so, yes. Michael Parkinson: A little musical break, a little musical interlude. Tell me the song you're going to sing - it's called 'A Different Corner'. George: Yeah. It's called 'A Different Corner'... [audience applause] George: I haven't actually sung this for about, probably for about ooh, about 11 years, 10 or 11 years. But I thought it was quite fitting, because the song I'm going to play later is the most recent song, but this one, even though people see 'Careless Whisper' as my first solo record, the truth is that 'Careless Whisper' wa}s written when Andrew and I were at school, and it was written for, you know, whatever we turned into. But 'Different Corner' was the first thing that I wrote as a solo artiste, so I thought it would be a nice thing to do, just to bring back a few old memories. Michael Parkinson: The band and your singers awaits you. George: Thank you. [audience cheers/applause] [George sings "A DIFFERENT CORNER".] [audience cheers/applause] Michael Parkinson: Nice song, that one. George: Thank you. Thank you. Michael Parkinson: So obviously, as you said before you sang it, it was a kind of -that was a turning point, wasn't it, in your career, in a sense, when you went solo. But let's go back a bit, let's talk about those Wham days, because it must... George: Must we? Michael Parkinson: Yeah, we must. George: No, I'm not - I have no problem talking aboujt Wham. I have a problem watching Wham. But... [audience laughter] George: But you know, I had a great time. I'm really glad the way it all turned out. Michael Parkinson: What about - tell us about Andrew and about the meeting him and the effect it had on your life. George: Andrew I met when I was 11 years old - 11 or 12 years old, I think 11. I'd just changed schools. My father - we moved house, and I changed schools when I was 11, and Andrew was appointed to look after me. You know when the new kid walks in and stands there looking really sheepish, and they say - who would like to take care of this? And Andrew, for some reason, put his hand up and said, I will, Miss. And the rest is history really. It was a very, very strong, powerful relationship, and it changed my life, and it changed my way of looking at so many things, that I really think that without Andrew I would have been in a totally different place right now. Michael Parkinson: What happened to Andrew? I mean, where is he? George: Andrew's the smart one. Andrew's off surfing in Cornwall. And he really - I mean, he's taken a real bashing over the years, you know, because I'm still here - I sound like Shirley MacLaine in that movie, what's that movie? 'Postcards From The Edge'. 8ecause I'm still here, Andrew gets a constant drumming. Every time his name comes up in association with me, he almost uniformly gets slagged off. And I think over the years, that's had quite a negative effect on the way he views the industry, the way he views those days in Wham. But he decided just to get away from it all, and went and lived down by the coast. So I don't see much of him anymore. Michael Parkinson: In that relationship, I mean, you were the creative sense, in that you wrote the songs and that sort of thing. But I mean, what was his contribution then? Why was he so significant? George: Well, because he had such a sense of humour. I mean, unfortunately for us, you know, the sense of humour - the sense of humour that we had, which was very juvenile, because we were juvenile, you know. I mean, I left school - he left a little before me, but I left school and 7 or 8 months later I had a record contract, so I was a still a kid, you know. And our sense of humour, or our own, kind of, private sense of humour that had built up over the years, I don't know if we thought everyone else would get it rather than just thinking we were complete tossers, but we were constantly trying to annoy people. And that's Andrew actually, that's Andrew all over. Like, you know, with the first album - calling the first album 'Fantastic'. And oh, god, I just remembered, I have this horrible flashback. Do you remember a couple of weeks ago, actually, you wouldn't have seen it, but on the MTV Awards Fergie presented an award to the group called Massive Attack, who I'm a huge fan of, and they're fervent anti-Royalists, and I like them and I really like her, 'cos I've met her a few times, and it was a very embarrassing moment for all involved, but basically, she went up to give them their award, and they snubbed her, and two of them went like that to her, right. And the horrible truth is, for at least a year, right, after Andrew and I were first famous, whenever anyone would come up to us that we hadn't been introduced to, we'd go ohh....! [audience laughter] George: Now, can you imagine - within 12 months the number of people you can do that to, you can imagine, even if nothing else about us had been annoying, right, we would have been blacklisted by then just for that. But you know, that was us. I mean, we mucked about like that the whole time. And it was fantastic also in the sense that it kept us both grounded, 'cos we had each other to take the piss out of the whole time. So that was something - that is something that I've really missed. Michael Parkinson: But I mean, was it fulfilling in the sense of you, you know, enjoying yourself, you're a kid, I mean, there was the glamour of it, there was the money, there was the birds, everything, wasn't there, at that time? George: Mm. It was the whole thing. I mean, you know, I think we both kind of gorged on - not the money side of things. Money, really, I was so afraid of money until probably the age of about 28, 30 that it really - I really didn't live in any way according to the money that I was earning, and actually, Wham wasn't making any money - for the longest time we were making no money. Our first 'Top of the Pops' we went home on the bus. [audience laughter] Michael Parkinson: Really? George: Yeah. And actually, I remember - the night before, I actually remember the night before, we stayed in this little hotel off of Charing Cross Road, because our record company, our little, kind of, mini record company that we were on at the time was paying, and so they wanted to make sure that we got there in time for 'Top of the Pops', the first 'Top of the Pops', so they stuck us in this hotel that couldn't have been more than 80p to a quid a night. And I was sleeping - the night before my first 'Top of the Pops', it had polystyrene sheets and it was a child-size bed, so I was like this - I was sitting with my feet over the end of it, thinking - this isn't the way it's supposed to be, you know. I'm supposed to be, you know, if you're on 'Top of the Pops' that means your famous. Michael Parkinson: That's right. George: In fact, the day after the first 'Top of the Pops' I was just convinced that everyone recognised me, you know. I was walking down the street like... [audience laughter] George: Watch t.v last night? [audience laughter] George: You know. And it was - and it was horrible, because... [audience laughter/applaus] George: ...absolutely nobody did. Nobody recognised me. I think it took about 3 days before someone came up and asked me for my autograph, and I was absolutely shattered that it took that long. Michael Parkinson: Do you play old Wham tapes at home? [audience laughter] George: No, I can't say I do. Michael Parkinson: Go on, you do. George: I did for a while, when the Greatest Hits was out. I play - I'm too busy playing my own records at home. I can't play Wham records. I play George Michael records 24 hours a day. The dog can sing 'Careless Whisper'. [audience laughter] Michael Parkinson: Your dog this afternoon was singing along with you. George: My sister does say actually... Michael Parkinson: He was looking at the monitor and he was doing the descant. George: My sister does say that when she - there was one time, 'cos I leave my dog with family when I'm abroad, and I was in America for about 6 weeks, 8 weeks in one stretch last year, and my sister said, actually, that the dog used to go and sit by the radio when - and she could actually hear my voice, when one of my tracks would come on, she'd go and sit by the radio. [audience reaction] George: But that shows how much I play them at home, doesn't it? [audience laughter] Michael Parkinson: Let's just - as we close the chapter on Wham, just let's be reminded, shall we? [audience applaus] Michael Parkinson: This is 'Top of the Pops', probably the 'Top of the Pops' you were talking about. [audience laughter] [(F/C) WHAM - "TOP OF THE POPS"] [audience cheers/applaus] George: Anyway, it's been really nice. [George gets up to leave] Michael Parkinson: It has been nice. [audience laughter] George: But there you go, I mean, those awful tee-shirts with number l's that, actually, my mother and my sister spent all night sewing on. Poor things. I mean, there you go, apart from looking terrible, how annoying. You know, how annoying must we have been to all those bands at the time that we were competing with, that we'd be that tacky and cheesy to do that. But we thought it was funny. It's just that everyone else thought we were completely for real, you know. That's my version of events. [audience laughter] Michael Parkinson: Alright, so then - off you went then, to the solo career. And I mean, that - the first record you did, the first you did was 'Faith', and that was a mega, mega success and made you into a megastar. And I suppose, the problem you'd have then, of course, was that you were still, were you not, this popstar, trying to be established as a songwriter, singer/songwriter, you still had this image of the Wham. George: Well, one of the things, you know, I had placed a lot of Wham's kind of scream thing around Andrew, and I really didn't think that if - I did, kind of, what was coming naturally to me at the time. I mean, 'Faith', the way I looked in the videos and stuff was pretty much - sad as it is, that was pretty much how I was walking about day to day. [audience laughter] George: But I really didn't think that - I really didn't think that that image was going to create that whole same thing again, which is pretty much what it did, especially in America, I got this whole new wave of young fans, predominantly female, and I kind of boxed myself in again, without thinking that I had, you know. It was naive of me. When I look back and I look at the videos, obviously the image was going to work. So I was really convinced that I was on a different path. And then it became massive with 'Faith' and I realised that I was even more miserable than I than when I'd split up Wham, and the reason I split up Wham was 'cos I was miserable. So you know, I'd kind of scuppered myself again. Michael Parkinson: Are you given to depression? George: No, I'm not actually. I'm not. When I was younger, because, I suppose, I was so confused about my sexuality and other things, I suppose I was prone to loneliness and depression around loneliness, because it is very lonely if you're surrounded by people, but you're not really surrounded by anyone, you know. And I was prone to that. I'm not prone to depression. I'm not a depressive person. People think, you know, a lot of things that have been written about me lately - I mean, the press love to think that all there is in your life is your relationship with the public and them, you know. And I made a real effort in my life over the last 10 years for that not to be the case, to try and make my life a rounded thing, without h|aving to interact with the public, so that I could keep making music, so that they would still want something that I was doing. And recently, all the press have kind of taken this attitude - he just looks so - well, he looks so happy now we've 'outted' him, you know, we've done him a big favour. Michael Parkinson: Well, I was going to say this to you, I was going to... George: But the fact is, I looked like this - actually, years ago I looked happy like this, if anyone remembers, but I've had a really tough decade really, you know. As I said, I lost a partner, I lost my mother, I lost my dignity. I lost, you know, I've lost lots of things. Of course, yeah, there's some relief in not having to play the press game over my sexuality. But that's all it was. It was between me and them. Michael Parkinson: That was a worry, was it? I mean, that was - when you said you were confused. George: Well, it wasn't a worry, it was just... Michael Parkinson: Well, can we just go back on two things... George: I will let you interview me. It's alright... [audience laughter] Michael Parkinson: You're doing alright. When you said you were confused about your sexuality, I mean, does that mean to say that you were confused about what you really were? George: Well, yeah. I didn't even see it as confused at the time. When I was younger and, of course, there was all this availability, there has been a lot of availability since I've been well known, but when I was younger because there was no emotional attachment to anything, I really was - I was seriously under-developed emotionally. I never had any crushes on anyone at school, never fell in love at school, had lots of girlfriends. Carried on all through the first part of my career - by that time I knew I was bisexual, and basically, I'd had plenty of experience on both sides of the fence, as it were, but I had no emotional attachment, so I had nothing to attach my sexuality to. The day that I knew that I was gay was the day that I knew that I was in love with a man. And at that point there is no, you know, there was no real question for me. I understood what had been missing all this time. And that could have gone on for a lot longer, you know. Luckily, it finished when I was - that confusion, I suppose, finished when I was about 26. Michael Parkinson: Yes. George: But in that time in between, I wasn't so much thinking I was sexually confused, I just thought I was bisexual. I thought well, you know, if you can, kind of, take it or leave it on either side, then basically, then you must be bisexual. And now I ralise it's got nothing to do with who you can get it up for, it's to do with who you can get it up for and love, you know. Michael Parkinson: Yes. Yes. George: That's really - that's really the way I feel. I don't feel my sexuality is bisexual. I think I'm gay. Michael Parkinson: Given all that's happened to you recently, I mean, is there, nonetheless, a kind of sense of relief now that it's in the open, this? It's... George: Well... Michael Parkinson: I mean, you said before that you'd actually declared it in your music, didn't you? George: Well, I felt that there was a general - especially here in England, I think anyone who didn't have a fair old idea that, you know, that I was - I mean, why had no one seen me with a woman for the last, you know.. Okay, occasionally, if I'm coming out of a club with a friend or a couple of friends, they'll pick the pretty girl that's to one side of me, and they'll say George with mystery, this and that. And the press knew I was gay as well. This was the strange thing about it. It wasn't like they were trying to.. Until they could get something solid and, you know, really nasty, they were kind of playing the same game that, I suppose, the public were, which is - well, we don't really want to know, as long as he keeps making music, et cetera, et cetera. Which is, I thought was - I generally thought that when I walked in to a room full of people they knew I was gay. But definitely over the last 5 years, I've felt that. But the only relief really, what I didn't realise was how much energy it took to play this game with the press, that was really just about my pride and my privacy. It wasn't about my sexuality, because I knew, I felt, and I've always felt that I have a very strong sense of my audience, and I knew that my audience were not going to desert me if they found out I was gay, you know. Michael Parkinson: Yes. George: You know. I believed in - and I believe in people more than that, that if they get something rewarding from you emotionally, such as music, that they, you know, that they are tolerant of certain things. And as well they should be. But I - I think people generally thought that - I thought that if I actually declared that I was gay I would suffer some huge loss of audience. And I never believed that. I might have believed that back in the days of Wham, but I never believed that. I just had - it was like, me and the press was like two dogs with a bone, you know. Michael Parkinson: But is that better now? George: But it's like now that I've let go and they've done that, yes, it does feel like relief. Michael Parkinson: You're happier. It doesn't bother you. George: Yeah. Michael Parkinson: The other thing that occurred to me is that you came from a very close-knit family, you're a close-knit family still, have you resolved the problem that you have of not furthering that family, not having children? George: I don't have that desire anymore. I don't think - oh, I wish I had children. I've realised that my sense of purpose has become my music, and I think that creative people are lucky in the sense that maybe if you're a gay person or if you're a person who is not able to have children for one reason or another, and you don't have a vocation, it probably is an incredibly tough thing. Because I think by a certain point in life most people decide that they've either achieved the ambitions they wanted to or that they're never going to, and they put their sense of purpose into their family. And I think that's perfectly natural and understandable. I think if you're a creative person, some of that pressure is taken away to fulfil, you know, or to have a sense of purpose, because my sense of purpose still is really a creative one, and I'd like to think that I'll drop dead being creative, you know. I'd love to think that on the day I die Ill still be working towards something in the creative sense. Michael Parkinson: Now, of course, what you've done as well, you've turned the incidence in the Will Rogers Park into a commercial success in a sense, because you've written a song called 'Outside' which celebrates, if that be the word, Marcello Rodriguez - that was the name of the policeman, wasn't it? George: Yes. Well, that was the name of the police. Actually, funnily enough, you know what, when we point that if the average straight man, if a good-looking bird came into a toilet and you're standing there, and she started playing with herself basically, and you would turn - I'm sorry, how, I do not know, I don't know any men actually, I have plenty of straight friends, I don't know any straight men where they would think this is a public place. [audience laughter/applaus] George: This - you know, this is a public place, and it is against the law, and I shall, therefore, not proceed. [audience laughter] George: You know, they would go for it. And if she then turned out.. And if you heard this about one of your friends and said that then, basically, the woman turned out to be a copper, you'd think christ, how could they do that to a guy, you know. And what is the difference? Where is the real difference? You know. To induce a crime is to induce a crime. So anyway, I put this little bit on the front of the video, and I made that exact reference. And we did it in a kind of - we pretended it was a Swedish porn movie. We filmed it properly, but then pretended it was a Swedish porn movie. And I had, like, a Swedish dialogue going over the top. And we had credits, and we made up words and language for the credits. So I thought, to have a bit of a go at the police fficer who, as far as I'm concerned, you know.. 'cos it's probably ruining people's lives, it hasn't ruined mine, I'm lucky, I'm in a profession where it doesn't really matter, I'm 'out' with all my friends and family, and I have lots of friends that are very, very accepting of who I am. My boyfriend absolutely, that was a problem, you know, of course. But the point being that I wanted to say, you know, this - basically, I wanted to have a bit of a go at the guy that had done it to me, so I put Marchello - I respelled his name, but in the credits I put Marchello Uffenwanken. [audience laughter] George: You know. And just so not to make it really, really obvious I turned the 'o' into a 'u' and put a little kind of umlaut thing over the top - Uffenvaken. And on MTV they blurred it out. Like, you can - you know, you can see people get - the things that you see on t.v today, the things that people have read about and talked about in connection with me this past 8 months, and they blot out an imaginary word that suggests the word 'wank', do you know what I mean? It's, like, I couldn't believe it! It was absolutely stunning. Michael Parkinson: So which version are we going to see now? [audience laughter] George: No, this is - this is Seldomwanken now. [audience laughter] George: I never even think about masturbation before calling my - I never even think about masturbation before calling my lawyer... [audience applaus] Michael Parkinson: So this is the concert version about... George: Yeah. This is a kind of version we thought we could manage tonight in this - we kind of tone it down a &bit, and you won't get - I won't be acting out the video or anything. [audience response] George: This is called 'Outside' Michael Parkinson: 'Outside'. There's your group and your... [audience cheers/applause] [George sings "OUTSIDE".] [audience cheers/applaus] Michael Parkinson: Well, I'm glad that you enjoyed it. So did I. My thanks to George Michael. To the marvellous backing group, the singers and everybody. Marvellous. [audience cheers/applaus] Michael Parkinson: I must remind you before we go, that a new series of 'Parkinson' starts on January 8th when my guests will include Geri Halliwell - your mate. George: Absolutely. Yes. Michael Parkinson: And Dawn French. Until then, from all of us here, a very goodnight. Goodnight. [audience cheers/applaus] [theme music] |